AN E-MAIL FORUM CONDUCTED DURING A MODERN ENGLISH LITERATURE COURSE, SUMMER 2001

Jean

Even though Captain Vere was very smart and proficient, he could not prevent the tragic flaw that killed lieutenant Claggart and Bill. Vere did not want Claggart and Billy's argument to escalate; he invited them to a meeting to deter Billy's imminent trouble of the mutiny's accusation, which Lieutenant Claggart implied that Billy was plotting. Unfortunately, instead of reaching an agreement, the crux of the matter happens when Billy killed Claggart at the meeting. Captain Vere and Billy are two very
strong and sympathetic figure of "The Billy Bird sailor's" story. Captain Very is well-educated and instructed in contrast to Billy’s; on the other hand, Billy is a natural strong and good person due to his strong environment of nature. Billy's existence does not know anything better than living in harmony and survival between the blue sky and the sea. Of course living and surviving are the reflexes of him for when the tempest
comes; mariners must fight it to survive. This is exactly the same way that Billy reacted by killing Claggart who was trying to accuse him of being the leader of an imminent mutiny on the ship. The incident created severe troubles to Vere who really cared and loved Billy dearly. Captain Vere knew humankind's alteration of idea while power is in affect, so he swiftly understood what happen to Billy's future. Imagine the British  Empire at that epoch convincing itself that it was the supreme majesty of the world for its qualified lieutenant to be killed by a mariner. Billy was not enough to share. Billy's trial and condemnation did not bother him as it did to captain Very who deeply knew how sincere and strong Billy was. Even though Vere's intervention of saving Billy's life was in vain, he shared some private time with Billy before his death; time that still remains a mystic hallucination to decipher. Captain Vere was not only fond of Billy, but also respected him for his sincerity and courage. Even though evidences of Billy's body in the process of dying by hanging, elucidated truth of intercourse before his death, but there was more interested exchanges of speech, eye contact, and acknowledgment of capacity between the two of them. Captain Vere lost control when Billy’s sentence occurred because he simultaneously new that he could not save
Billy's life and would the one to order the execution of someone whom he loved and respected dearly their last conversation, Vere acknowledged to Billy how much he loved him and could not fight superiority to prove him innocent. Unfortunately, Lieutenant Claggart and Billy died, but the crux of the matter remained to Captain Vere who had to live with Billy's memory for do lour never dies; it is sweetening a little and sometimes it degenerates in melancholy. Vere's pain was worst than Billy’s because Billy did not know the meaning of dying due to his quasi-force acquiring between the solitary of sky and sea. After their conversation, Billy wished to Vere the blessing of the All Mighty for he recognized how a caring person Captain Very was to put his live in danger by trying to save him. Billy depicted subtle honesty to Vere that is one of the reason Billy's name was the last word eliciting from Vere's innermost ending
his agony. As sometimes they say "Save the best for last." 

Randi

I agree with you that Billy is naturally strong and an excellent sailor.  I would definitely say that Billy is a hero-like figure.   I also think that the men on the ship thought this too. However, I can't help but wonder if Billy would still be a hero-like figure had things been different. Billy was someone that they looked up to and knew they could count on in matters of war and ship duties.  As it was said in the story that Billy always had large groups of men around him, watching him in amazement at all times.  He was definitely a role model for them.  As we know Claggart knew this.  I believe that if Claggart was more secure with himself and not jealous of Billy's social position on the boat, he would have seen the hero-like qualities in Billy too and maybe have eventually come to like him.  However, Claggart became the coward who tried to get rid of his jealous feelings by accusing Billy of mutiny, which led to the fatal dispute that was the end of Billy.  
      I think it is obvious that Billy may not have been liked so much had his background and flaws been different.  Billy's hero-like quality of giving all he’s got mainly was a direct influence from not having family like relations.  He had no one to live for but himself.  This is why he put so much effort into his ability to be a great sailor.  He would die for what he believed in a minute.
      Another factor is that Billy was not able to speak at times.  I found it amusing because my friends and I have a saying about the guys we meet in social environments.  We always say that they would be perfect if they never opened their mouth.  As we discussed in class, certain truths about Billy may have been revealed had he been able to speak and people may have felt very differently about him.
      However, in the story, Billy killing Claggart was a hero-like action, based on the sailors opinion of Claggart.  Captain Vere knew that Billy never meant to kill Claggart and that Billy was a hero to all on the ship.  He was loyal, trustworthy, and willing to go the extra step to protect the ship.  Billy knew that he had done something wrong and knew what the consequences were and accepted them without resistance.  
      As a sailor, I would see Billy as hero therefore getting rid of the enemy and going out with courage.
      As for Captain Vere, I am sure he would say that Billy is a hero also.  Even thought there is an indication that sexual relations went on between the two and that Capt Vere was very fond of Billy.  The fact that Capt. Vere was more upset over His decision to hang Billy and to see him die, leads me to believe that he would feel that way also.

Randi

After reading Virginia Woolf's To the Lighthouse, I could not help but compare it to modern day roles of men and women.  Thinking about Mrs. Ramsay's thoughts to herself about her life.  In our society today, I think the main difference is that divorce is a common concept.  Couples nowadays do not have the morals of marriage and how it is a lifelong commitment instilled in their heads.  Women today are much more independent and it is common to see women expressing their unhappiness in marriage.  Mrs. Ramsay wonders how she ever felt anything for her husband and how she got to this point in her life.  It seems to me that she feels she has to put on an act in front of others due to the norms, standards and expectations of women in that time period. However, she is not completely a "housewife”, she feels she has a role that she needs perform.  She certainly is a good mother based on the relationships she has with her children.  However, her relationship with her husband would be considered today headed for disaster.  In the book we have no proof of any sexual relations with her husband.  We know that they have a strange way of communicating with her husband and often feels like he is pitiful, in which she still remains faithful.  Many husbands or wives today would either seek another to give what they aren’t getting, get counseling, or just get a divorce as if it were not a big deal, in that it is a common procedure that happens all the time. Where is the commitment, loyalty and effort in marriages these days?
I feel that Lily Briscoe is a character that would be more common in our day.  Women and men today do not marry at young ages.  Some do it in their 30s, 40s, and 50s.  I think that this story would be very different if the author had to write in our time.  Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay would probably be divorced, and most likely not have eight children.  If they did have that many children, it would be through separate marriages. Mrs. Ramsay would probably have a job, maybe making more money than her husband, and he would still feel like a pitiful man. Lily would not be looked upon as abnormal because she is 33 without a husband.  She would be considered a smart woman who knows that she does not need to marry a man because it is expected of her.  She would be seen as intelligent for waiting for the right person to come along. I also think Mr. Bankes and Lily may have casual intimate encounters because sex is seen as a more casual concept nowadays and it not seen as a means of procreation.
I really think it would be interesting to see the difference if the story had been written in present day times.  Gender roles nowadays are much different than before.

Jean

I totally agree with you that Billy was a hero to the sailors, but I did not think that Billy was a hero by killing Claggart. Billy killed Claggart because he was innocent, and he did not have an idea of imminent danger if he killed someone for he never knew what was going on in the world, except of navigation. Captain Vere and Claggart saw Billy as an hero also. Even though Claggart was worried of Billy's admiration  by the sailors, he did not hate him that much. I personally think that Claggart was doing his task in trying to investigate the mutiny due to his role on the ship. He had many reasons to seek the truth.  First, if the mutiny really existed and He was the one who revealed it; he would be promoted as a reward; and if the mutiny took place, he could lose his
life also.

Now let us talk a little more about "The Light House"

To me Mrs. Ramsay was a very good mother, a good wife, and especially a very strong woman who was able to live and balance well the difficulties of her married life. Even though Mr. Ramsay's sciences fascination and bad humor caused troubles to their married life, Mrs. Ramsay did not let these troubles impeded her good senses of housewife who took care of her house's works. Mrs. Ramsay was a very patient woman who waited in vain for her husband to bring love that she always expected. I think one of the reason Mrs. Ramsay did not break her marriage is proud. Some very good women prefer suffering in a bad relationship due to their children safety to not be mistreated by new men in their lives. Mrs. Ramsay's wisdom and her natural power really protected her of a nervous break down in her life. She once mentioned when the night comes and the children sleep, I feel so comfortable in hearing these sweet and mysterious harmonies sounds of the night' and they make her remember that all her troubles were ephemeral. People who possess the ability of acquiring nature's power
are almost vulnerable of suffering pains occurring in their lives. I do not see Mrs. Ramsay as a victim of old time woman who had to suffer humiliation by her husband, but one who could oppose the scorn to insolence. Mrs. Ramsay's comfort came from her ability to resist her husband's bad strategies towards her and the love between her and her children. The children were old enough to leave the house and they could not lest they would break the relationship between them and their mother. Mrs. Ramsay understood that it was not easy to have a full time relationship with her husband due to his job, but the worst part she had to deal with was Mr. Ramsay's arrogance. It is not easy for some marriage to be prosperous when married to someone whom his task requires a lot of time. Due to Lily Briscoe's experience and her job, I think that is the
main reason that she recognized that her job could bring torment in her married life. I personally do not think that time was the factor retaining women of running away from an abusive marriage. Time was in affect to infringe women political right and interference. 

Randi

I agree with you that Mrs. Ramsay is a very strong woman and that was probably one of the main reasons that she did not have a nervous break down.  However, I feel that her strength was a product of the time that she was born and raised.  Apparently, Mrs. Ramsay came from a middle upper or upper class family.  I am sure that being brought up in an upper class family, that she would have learned the proper etiquette of the roles of men and women of that time.  Women in those days were not to be superior to their husbands.  Women had the role of wife and mother. Their main jobs were to keep the house clean, take care of the children and make sure dinner was ready, or in Mrs. Ramsay’s case, that the help had it on the table.  Even today we still see this stereotyping of women.  Being surrounded by many old fashioned Italians, in my family, this gender role still exists.  The husband is the money provider and the wife takes care of the house, kids, and keeping the husband happy.  I'm not saying that all Italians are like this, but I still see it today.  As a matter of fact, in a way I can relate myself to Lily Briscoe.  My grandmother came from Italy when she was 19 years old and married my grandfather who is also Italian.    My sister who is 24, I am 22, has always had a boyfriend or a serious relationship.  Me, on the other hand cannot find the right person and at the moment do not want to settle down.  Anyway, almost everyday I hear my grandmother telling me, a 22 year old, that I should find a nice boy and get married before I am too old!  I haven't even finished college!!!!  She constantly reminds me that I should be like my sister and try to settle down. This conversation always leads to me remind her that I am 22 years old and some people don't get married until they are in their 30's and 40s.  Simply, TIMES HAVE CHANGED! What was expected of a 22-year-old woman from her culture and time is much different nowadays.  
We also know that Mrs. Ramsay may have been an intelligent woman, but never let her husband know it.  Her husband even implies that she is not intelligent.  There is definitely a huge difference today.  If women are smart they are proud and show it.  There is nothing wrong with being an intelligent woman, and definitely no reason to hide it to boost the self-confidence of a man or husband.  Roles today have changed,  Men are sometimes the ones to stay home and do the "house wife" work, while their wives go out and make the money.  Not to say you are wrong about the way you feel, but I think that To the Lighthouse definitely displays serious gender roles of women.

Jean

I received your article and it is very good. I do believe that you have made a valuable and smart choice by taking you time to find someone nice to get married, and I wish you the best when you find one. I hope that you do not call me Mr. Ramsay by standing firmly on my argument that I do believe in individual self-conscious that must guide someone towards his  or her freedom. My point is to make women in abusive relationship become stronger as I always wanted my mother to be. To me it does not matter when or how women choose to stay in a relationship torturing them, but they must recognize that no one supposes to love someone more than his or her own self. The value of conscious does not depend on time but in consciousness decision. I look at Mrs. Ramsay's case almost equivalent to Delia's, but Delia's was worst to beating. I do believe that women who tolerate abuse from men are very weak. To me Mrs. Ramsay or Delia could leave their bad men in quest of a better life. In the past, way back some women stood up for what was almost looked impossible. Joan D'arc was the pivot on which "The French Revolution” started to oscillate around, Rosa Park sat in her desired non-segregated seat on a segregated bus. I do understand that time has infringed women in our society politically, but it has never been illicit for abused women to break an abusive relationship.

Randi

I agree in that women should not take abuse of any kind.  I honestly can't say that I have been in an abusive relationship, physically, but I can say that there is no excuse for a woman not to try to stand up for herself.  I know Mrs. Ramsay was not abused physically or mentally, she was just very unhappy with her husband and her relationship.  Children do play an important role by having them, they make leaving a spouse much more difficult.  I don't doubt that Mrs. Ramsay didn't love her husband whole-heartedly, she felt as though maybe her life would have been different if she didn’t have the pressure to conform to social expectations.  Delia, on the other hand, had a much worse situation.  However, she appeared to be much more independent than Mrs. Ramsay.  She knew that Sykes hated that she worked for the white folks, however, she continued to work regardless.  It was what she wanted to do.  I think this also took the focus off of her married life.  Like Lily used art as a substitute for intimacy, Delia uses her job as an excuse to be away from her husband.  To give her a different kind of intimacy, time alone.  Delia also had more courage than Mrs. Ramsay.  She was probably sick and tried of being abused by her husband that she could stand up to him and she built a wall for herself to separate herself from him.  Where do men get this dominant power?  I ask myself all the time why men think it is okay for them to have affairs, but the thought of their wives is unacceptable. Like on the Sopranos.  Tony can have an affair, but I bet you the minute the thought of Carmela doing the same comes into play, its all over. Most of my guy friends say these things all of the time.  You know how the story goes...if a guy sleeps with 50 girls he's a stud, but if a girl does it...she’s considered a whore? Excuse my language.  Men feel that they still have a power over women.  Sykes can beat up his wife and bring his lover into his house, like its no big deal.  Delia has no other choice to separate herself from him.  Like Mrs. Ramsay, I am sure that she loved her husband truly at some point and probably still does, and the same goes for Delia.  For whatever reason these women do not get out of marriages, whether it was divorce was unfavorable in society or because of religious beliefs, they have found a way to cope by separating themselves from their husbands or finding another focus in life.  It is a horrible feeling to be stuck in something like a marriage, knowing that there is no way to bet out, but death.  Mrs. Ramsay found her way out by her own death and Delia by her husbands.   "Till death do us part.” Both of these women stuck by their vows and escaped their troubles in life by death.  I think we could say that both of these women are loyal.  I know I' am rambling on, but the point is that I feel in this day and age, we are making a significant comeback as women.  We're not completely there, but soon enough.  I think it’s very sad that women lose their ideals because of men.  No one should ever let their goals or dreams be shot down by anyone.

Jean
After reading your message, I was thinking about your comparison of  the characters such as Delia, Mrs. Ramsay, Sykes, and Tony. Concerning the men, due to my imagination, they share almost same type of abuse; but Sykes was the worst. I look at Sykes and Tony as two modern pimps who managed to have and control all of their women. I personally consider Sykes as an illiterate, prejudice, and wicked man who was abusing Delia.  Sykes' arrogance and brutality are unacceptable to any dynamic woman who respects herself. Delia, as a strong worker who sacrificed herself to make a living, should not allow herself to be abused by Sykes who did not bring an income home. Delia and Mrs. Ramsay were two strong women due to their powerful beliefs. Delia possessed the Christian faith that allowed her to endure her pains. Mrs. Ramsay, on the other hand, was well-educated and possessed nature's power that made her see, understand, and throw her troubles away. To me Mrs. Ramsay’s life was better than Delia's. Even though Mr. Ramsay was annoying in looking for conception, he never beat  his wife and brought woman to her face. I can understand that Mrs. Ramsay was married to Mr. Ramsay, and she might have many reason to stay engaged, due to the children, people’s criticism, and her self conscious of not taking another man that could be worst than her husband. Delia’s case is different, for she was not married to Sykes. Whatever Delia's attraction was, she should not stay with Sykes who was torturing her. Sykes even brought a rattlesnake in the house to enhance Delia’s troubles. I condemn Delia more than Sykes to endure the torments that Sykes had put her through. Maybe, Delia did not have enough personality to realize how much Sykes was humiliated her by beating her and bringinga woman in her face for three months. The All Mighty delivered Delia by Sykes' death by his snake that he brought in the house to enhance Delia's pains. I never thought that Delia would leave Sykes because abused women who remain in an abusive relationship never look at tomorrow because they see every of their day for just one day.

Randi

You are absolutely right.  Sykes was an evil man, who deserved exactly what he got.  I was thinking about this a lot over the week.  Delia obviously displays some characteristics of a strong woman, in terms of putting up with her husbands abuse.  She did remain in a marriage that caused her much more misery than happiness.  She may be considered weak for sticking around, but due to her strong faith and religious beliefs, she stood by her man. Because of her religious beliefs, she remained loyal to her prick of a husband, and in a way she was rewarded. Even though she may love Sykes or at one time did, she showed her loyalty throughout the abuse.  In the end she was relieved from her pain, due to fate.  Whether it was God or whoever.  This truly shows that if we stand by our beliefs and obey the laws of religion, in the end we are rewarded.  However, I am only making this exception due to the time the story took place.  Today, I feel that there is no reason to make a choice similar to Delias.  Knowing many women who have been abused physically and mentally, I still do not understand the why they stick around.  Maybe it's because I myself have never been in a situation that severe, but I would like to think that I would be strong enough to think about my safety and get out.  In my past relationships with guys, there was one that stuck out.  I would get phone calls in the middle of the night just so he could tell me I was a bitch and I'm nasty and I have problems.  Lets think about that...I have mental problems????  No, I'm not the one who likes to torment other people.  One of my ex-boyfriends of a year and a half once threw me up against a car and tried to choke me, but then realized what he was doing.  Did I stick around for that? Hell No! That was the first and last time. That’s why I feel lucky to have been brought up in these times. I was not raised to think that a man is dominant and I have to please him.  You are right. Mr. Ramsay was annoying, but never an evil man, just pathetic.  Believe me, I am not a feminist freak, I just have respect for myself.  We even see that there is a connection between Mrs. Ramsay and Ursula.  Ursula is the top woman in the house.  She shows every sign of being strong.  She feels powerful enough to threaten people and she is loyal because she stands by her husband even if he has gone insane.  I definitely see some connection between the women in the stories we have read, and once again, I think it would be really interesting to see how these stories would change if they were written today.